All I read was the intro on the front page of trianglemom2mom.com and I thought I would probably agree with you. Just FYI though, in my high school in Illinois, we also were on the 7 point-scale, with 93-100 being an A.

I like your ideas. A little common sense in the public school system would go a long way! I don't think they need to hire a big-time consultant.

Personally, I think that spending that kind of money on a grading guru is ridiculous.

Back in the day, they did A- and A+, etc. so you could at least judge where on the scale you were. I'm not sure how that calculated into our GPAs, but I remember feeling as though an 87 was a solid B, almost closer to an A. At my son's school, that is closer to a C.

I agree with you Diane. I also am annoyed that grading, at least in middle school, seems to be very subjective. And don't even get me started on the 1,2,3,4 system in elementary...........

There was an article in the paper today about this and the discussion on the web site about the article is interesting:
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1525047.html
I posted a link over there to get more people to join in the discussion over here. One commenter posted: "It's plain wrong to award grades for jumping through the teacher's hoops, rather than for mastery of the academic requirements."
That could start me on a whole new tangent next week on "projects," which I think should be eradicated in high school. Give me a break with the poster board and glue. These kids should be prepared for college...make them write a paper.
But, I have seen the "teacher's hoops" in action with a small minority of teachers who unfortunately invite the scrutiny of the Board of Education. Whether or not a teacher accepts homework late due to a student being absent, how the teacher chooses to grade that homework, etc. can be subject to the whims or mood of a particular teacher. If my kids' teachers are reading this...seriously, it's not you...I have a lot of friends and we compare notes, so I've heard the stories.
Now, did I really mean that? Or am I just writing that because I am worried that I will tick off the wrong teacher and my child will pay the price in his/her grades?

I had read the article in the paper about the zeros, but didn't understand it fully until you explained it this way. That totally doesn't make sense for missing homework to affect your grades THAT much. I like your idea of it being averaged in at a 60%.

The comments on today's newspaper article are getting pretty heated. Why can't people have an intelligent discussion with different viewpoints without casting aspersions on people's political affiliations or calling the other people names because they happen to have a different belief?

I think that missing homework should be given a zero, but also think that the zero should be weighted so that a couple of zeros do not pull an A average down to a C. Especially if, as you imply, there is no standardized policy on turning homework in late. I believe in a case-to-case basis for this type of thing, myself.Giving a "65" for no homework is giving something for nothing, and we do not want to teach children this, correct? Otherwise, as adults, they will expect the same.....Then again, many public school teachers (in my years of experience as a public school teacher and parent) give ridiculous homework assignments that are nothing but time-wasters. I mean, if a kid can do 5 math problems correctly, why does s/he need to do 20? Same with the often-ridiculous writing assignments that teach nothing. And don't even get me started on projects. GRRRR

Oh, and if your school board wants to pay Dr. Feelgood $6,000 a day to consult on grading, I have a bridge I would like to sell them. This is ridiculous in the current economy....or in any economy, for that matter.Doesn't this consultant realize that many kids who are consistently not turning in homework are probably not involved in extracurricular activities and thus there is no "alternative consequence" for their infractions?

I too remember the plus and minus system which I think was helpful and encouraging to students. I can't beleive there is any school where an 87 is almost a C. The kids who have some issues will give up.

Diane you are on the right track. Hopefully common sense will prevail.

I agree with you on both counts.  If a student doesn't do their homework, then they deserve a zero. You shouldn't get 65% credit when you have put forth 0% effort. However, homework for the sake of homework needs to be eradicated.  It's burdensome for the students AND the teachers, and there is no academic advantage to be gained from it. 

There are simple ways to have your homework and grade it, too.  I had teachers who graded homework, but would allow you to miss 3 assignments with no penalty.  That way you could choose not to do an assignment on a particularly busy night, or when you completely forgot there would be no penalty.  Most of my teachers graded homework, and your homework grade accounted for 10% of your final grade.  Then if you at least did it 3 out of 4 nights, it didn't really hurt your grade too much.  I always felt that these systems were fair.

You make interesting points. If I actually write all the thoughts that came into my head while reading, my post will be as long as yours. I'll try to hit the highlights. I have heard of the 7-point scale used elsewhere, but I think the 10-point scale (particularly with + and - )makes more sense.

I disagree completely (but respectfully) with the idea of giving anything but a zero for uncompleted work. Kids who struggle to get a 65 or even up to 80 or so on that same homework will likely decide their efforts are time wasted and stop trying. It's possible that homework should just be weighted less on the final grade, but there are arguments against this also. I'm not proud to admit it, but I was a very lazy student in high school. I was one of those kids who rarely did the homework, but still aced all the tests and so, as my mom once put it, was an honor student through no fault of my own. I argued that my grades shouldn't suffer just because I didn't need to practice on the homework to learn the material. It was put to me that grading homework gave students who simply didn't perform well on tests the chance to bring their grades up.

There was also something in the article that mentioned cheating in the same sentence with late or not turned in homework. This is a completely different topic and IMO, needs to be addressed in schools as a more serious issue. Again, back when I was in school (which wasn't all that long ago), cheating was rampant. I always wished the teachers would catch on and punish offenders as it was written into the student handbook. Now that I'm an adult though, I'm pretty sure the teachers were not as clueless as I thought at the time. They just chose not to risk angry parents for enforcing the strict rules. When I worked test papers with my arm carefully covering my answers, I was called selfish, stuck-up and worse. I hate to think of my kids going to school in an environment where those who do the right thing are looked down on. And I know it will happen. But that's a little off topic.

I completely agree- the ways things are done now (grading scale and '0' homework grades with no across the board policy) are wrong, and definitely discourage students. I have 2 very good students, and my oldest has been caught in the 'lose a letter grade trap' b/c of the grade scale and a few missing homeworks. Often, they weren't even missing, but turned in 5 minutes late, which counts as missing for some teachers! He's also had teachers who were so disorganized, they'd lose properly turned in homework or projects and he'd have to redo work. In those cases, it's ALWAYS the student's fault, no matter how many students a teacher has or how disorganized they are. How is this right? He had a teacher last year who was so picky if they did one of her many, many rules wrong (say putting the name an inch down from where she wanted it) she would count that as a '0' for homework. To make matters worse, her accent was so strong, and she would only go over an algebra concept 1x, that he ended up teaching himself algebra from the book essentially all year. He ended up with a low B average (which would have been a solid B, almost an A anwhere else)- and this is a gifted student who worked hard. That is just not right! She was extremely hard to talk to about anything- terribly defensive and nasty and it just wasn't worth confronting her over things. No, i'm not one of those parents who always blame the teacher- to me the teacher is nearly always right and i defer to them (and my kids both know that). I've helped a lot in classrooms and seen what goes on firsthand. But i find it extremely frustrating that the times i've had a genuine problem, i can't approach the teacher for fear of making things worse for my child.

I do agree that awarding a '60' for missing homework doesn't solve things, and just encourages sloth, but we have had some teachers that allow makeup work for a lower grade, say 10% off each day, or even more- which is fine. But taking it down to 1/2 or '0' for 5 minutes late is just plain wrong. Yes, homework is only worth 10% of the overall grade for most teachers, but that 10% can and does drop you quickly if a teacher doesn't give much homework or is very picky. I have 2 gifted students, and even they get discouraged by things like this- i can't imagine ow a kid who is middle range or borderline feels. 23% failing to graduate is just obscene.

The grades being on the 7 point scale is wrong, too- not even most colleges do that! I know mine didn't. I am very concerned that transcripts are not being weighed fairly with other schools- i very much doubt all of the colleges bother to figure that out.

What, if anything can be done about these issues? venting is fine, but ultimately it doesn't change anything. Who makes these boneheaded decisions?

Grrrr! Two weeks ago I walked into a classroom of "projects"...my son was completely responsible for his and it truly looked like a 4th grader had put it together. MOST of the other projects looked like engineer-dads and architect-moms had done them. We haven't seen the grade yet, but now I am dreading it! Just hope the teacher can see that the work is truly all my son's with parental support, but not parental hands.

Thank you so much for the "respectful" disagreement...some of the commenters on my personal blog have not been so respectful...saying I have nothing better to do with my time than complain and that I'm raising kids who are going to end up with Mom doing their laundry at 30. Well, I'm here to tell you...Mom barely does their laundry now!!!

If you are interested in viewing any of those comments, click here:

http://www.liveandletdi.com/my_weblog/2009/05/guru-indeed.html

I am delighted with the number and diversity of the comments. This is what I always hoped Mom2Mom would be...a safe place to discuss issues that affect Moms in a mature and respectful manner. So many people have made points here that have made me rethink some of my positions. If I only talked to people who agreed with me, it wouldn't be very interesting and I wouldn't learn new things.

I do not see any of our points here, including my original post, as whining or complaining. Rather, I see it as expressing our viewpoints using our right of free speech!

Di-- as always, you've pinpointed an issue that is near and dear to our hearts.

I'd like to bring up that lovely grading system for elementary school, 1,2,3,and 4. Oh, and let's not forget 3*.

If that's not as subjective system, I don't know what is. When the system was first introduced, the schools explained that a 3 is grade level. A 3* reflected work that went beyond grade level, while a 4 was just-- it was like art: we can't describe it, but we'll know it when we see it. It wasn't just getting all of the questions right on the test, but there was an additional component the student added that just blew the teacher away. But we don't know what that would be.

What does that teach the kids? "Impress me. I don't know how, but go ahead and try anyway."

While there was supposed to be no correlation between the 1-2-3-4 system and the ABC system, it seems that in practice, a 4 is now an A. A 3 is a B, unless it's an A.

Let's just go back to the letters. On a 10 point grade system: 90- 100 = A.

Maybe I need to try to influence our free education guru on this.

I don't mean to be all, "everything was better back in the day," but when I was in high school, we got number grades, so you graduated with a 96.4 or something like that. Otherwise, how can you differentiate when a 4.0 represents a range of grades from 93-100 or 90-100 or whatever.

When I made the call to University of Florida and the Admissions Officer told me they make adjustments, she said that one of the main reasons is that different schools give different credit for an A in an AP class with some schools giving it a 5.0, some a 6.0 or some even a 7.0.

I don't know if anyone is following this anymore, but an e-friend of mine sent me some info about the grading policy at a school system where she used to teach. Her children are grown, but she is still interested in what's going on in education.

http://www.fcps.edu/news/grading.htm

I think this would be a great plan for Wake County to adopt.

Someone mentioned the problem of parents doing the work for their kids. I'm not sure there is a lot the school system can do about that. When you have a room full of 1st graders, I think it's pretty easy for the teachers to tell which students had a little too much "involvement." But as the kids get older, it's harder to tell. I guess we can pretend it's a good lesson for the proverbial real world, where sometimes people do get more or less credit than they deserve.

I would be in favor of dropping homework altogether, and following a more college-oriented approach to learning in the form of tests with more than just multiple choice answers and thoughtful, well-written essays and papers. Help HS kids prepare for college by teaching them how to study, how to manage time, create and follow outlines, etc. And homework in lower grades is crazy. My research-scientist PhD father never brought work home, so why should a ten year old? They are already inschool 6-7+ hours. Call it a day and learn during the "workday." It is how the world functions (for the most part). p.s. Small private school where I work: 7 point scale in HS.

To me, it doesn't make sense to give any credit for homework that was not done. Firstly, it indirectly penalizes the students who actually took the time & effort to do the work, secondly it rewards a negative behavior. I taught for 8 years (though not in a publuc school) and, believe me, there are students that will figure out how to exploit something like this.